Agenda and minutes

The Chair welcomed members to the meeting.

Apologies were received from:

Fiona Twycross AM, Cllr Francesco de Molfetta, Cllr Peter Hogarth, Cllr Eric Carter, Cllr Fran Oborski, Cllr John Riddle, Cllr Janet Willis, Cllr David Canon, Cllr Lesley Clarke (sub Cllr David Hopkins), Cllr Jan Curtice, Cllr Judith Heathcoat, Cllr Mark Healey, Cllr Dave Norman, Cllr Barbara Jefferson, Cllr Janet Willis, Cllr Jayne McCoy, Cllr David Wood, Cllr Rowland Rees-Evans, Cllr Steven Lambert, Cllr Paul Kirton (sub Cllr Teresa Higgins), Cllr Darren O’Donovan (sub Cllr Steve Tulley), Roy Wilsher NFCC (sub Nick Collins), Commissioner Andy Roe, CFO Wayne Bowcock.

There were no declarations of interest.

The minutes of the previous meeting held on 15 May 2020 were agreed.

The Chair welcomed Jonny to the meeting and invited him to update Fire Commission on the key issues affecting the sector in the coming months.

Jonny apologised on behalf of the Minister, who had been unable to attend on this occasion.

Jonny updated Fire Commission on developments with the fire reform agenda, in particular around the Minister’s 3 key priorities of people, professionalism and governance which he had outlined at the previous Commission meeting in May. He said that whilst Covid had been extremely challenging, it had also helped to improve and develop dialogue and collaborative working which had not existed in some areas pre-pandemic.

Jonny then spoke about the Home Office’s review of the role of Police & Crime Commissioners in the context of fire governance reform. He thanked those FRA’s that had submitted evidence to the first part of the review and said that evidence gathering was now complete. A draft report on the findings was due to be submitted to the Home Secretary in October.

Finally, Jonny updated members on the Government’s Spending Review and said that the working assumption was that this would be a comprehensive 3-year review, but clearly this could be subject to change given the current fluid situation with Covid. He thanked those members who had been involved in the joint LGA/NFCC submission on fire and said he felt that this had landed well at the Home Office.

Following Jonny’s presentation, members raised the following issues:

·       Nick Chard – Expressed concern about the impact of the Government’s proposed planning reforms on fire safety, particularly in relation to the extension of permitted development rights. FSMC Lead Members had written to the Minister outlining these concerns but were yet to receive a response. Jonny noted members’ concerns around this issue and promised to bring it to the Minister’s attention. He said that the Minister had introduced a joint strategic approach to fire and building safety straddling the Home Office and MHCLG which should help to resolve issues such as this.

·       Michael Payne – He considered that closer working between local and central levels was crucial in the Covid response and in the wider proposed reforms to the sector. He suggested that it would make sense if the Government’s proposed local government reorganisation and associated reforms to fire governance were put on hold in the light of the Covid second wave. Jonny said that any reforms to fire governance would have to tie in with the Government’s devolution white paper and its associated timescales. He added that the PCC review was in two parts and that there wouldn’t be any changes introduced before the PCC elections in May 2021.

·       Simon Coles – Would the Minister and his officials look again at the issue of revenue-raising by FRA’s through the council tax precept? 70% of properties in Somerset are below band D and are therefore not able to raise as much revenue as other areas. Jonny said that they were aware of the issue but didn’t have  ...  view the full minutes text for item 3.

The Chair invited Lucy Ellender, Senior Adviser, to introduce the discussion.

Lucy asked members to feedback on the lessons their Authorities and Services had drawn from responding to Covid-19, the challenges they faced and any issues that they would like the LGA to raise with government in the event of a second wave this autumn. In particular, she asked members to focus on the questions in paragraph 7 of the report.

Members made the following contributions:

·       Nick Chard – Covid has kick-started a culture change in how services operate and in the working patterns of employees. This should be embraced as it should lead to a more diverse, flexible and efficient workforce and at the same time reduce the sector’s carbon footprint.

·       Denise Turner-Stewart – Covid has improved working relationships with partners dramatically. In Surrey, the CFO chairs the Local Resilience Forum (LRF) which has really helped integrate the fire service. Covid was a catalyst for positive change.

·       Keith Aspden – North Yorkshire has also seen much improved partnership working during Covid but the key question is how we capture this and maintain it moving forward. LRFs involve leaders and lead members but not backbench councillors and they have therefore felt remote from the decision-making process. How can they be more closely involved?

·       Rebecca Knox – As well as looking at the positives, we really need to know what has not worked or is not working because we have at least another year to go of being impacted by Covid.

·       Cleo Lake – The tripartite agreement has worked well in Avon. No staff have been off sick. Working well with local community – e.g. the fire service has been the drop-off point for a digital inclusion project in Bristol. However, we mustn’t take our eye of the ball with other big issues such as diversity and inclusion which require strong leadership. Black Lives Matter and Grenfell have brought this to the fore. Bristol City Council is undertaking a cultural review as a result.

·       Greg Brackenridge – Strongly supports digital meetings but there needs to be more funding for digital infrastructure. West Midlands has just undergone an HMICFRS Covid inspection which asked very similar questions to paragraph 7. Asked if the LGA could press for a longer lead in time in future for inspections as officers were hard-pressed to meet the deadlines. Relationships with partners had been positively impacted by Covid. Operational lessons learned should feed into wider reform of working practices. Green book staff working from home has had an impact – they have been offered a wide range of support to enable them to carry on working effectively. Decision making has not suffered – urgent matters decisions have only been used sparingly and direct contact with members has been maintained.

·       Rob Nolan – Cornwall has embraced virtual meetings. Senior fire officers met virtually every morning throughout the crisis. Vehicles were crewed with 5 firefighters before the pandemic (an approach queried by inspectors). This has been reduced to 4 since  ...  view the full minutes text for item 4.

The Chair invited Lucy Ellender, Senior Adviser, to introduce the update.

Lucy outlined the proposed priorities for Fire Commission and Fire Services Management Committee for the coming year – People (inclusion and diversity); Professionalism (responding to inspection/reviews, fire/building safety, Spending Review, transparency and standards); Governance (PCC review and good governance); Climate Change; and Learning from Covid-19.

Following Lucy’s introduction, members made the following contributions:

·       Ian Stephens – Must keep a strong focus on climate change.

·       Nick Chard – Need to set the priorities in a hierarchy. The Minister’s priorities must be paramount, especially building safety.

·       Rebecca Knox – Using the learning from Covid-19 to improve working practices should be a key priority. Transforming culture and relationships should be a golden thread running through all of our work.

·       Les Byrom – Fire and building safety has to be the main priority for FSMC and making buildings safe as quickly as possible. Lead Members should seek to input into the Fire Safety and Building Safety Bills as they go through Parliament.

·       Keith Aspden – agree with the proposed priorities – they accurately represent all the issues facing the sector at the moment. We should make clear to the Minister and the Home Office that governance reform should not be a top priority at this difficult time.

·       Rachel Bailey - Carbon reduction is uppermost in the capital investment decisions of Cheshire Fire Authority. The importance of capital spend is going to be crucial moving forward if we are to reduce the sectors carbon footprint.

Lucy thanked members for their comments and said that they will help inform the priorities report going to FSMC on 16 October.

Decision

Members of the Fire Commission endorsed the proposed priorities subject to the above comments.

The Chair invited Gill Gittins, Senior Adviser (Workforce and Negotiations), and Clair Alcock, Firefighters Pensions Adviser, to introduce the update.

Gill urged FRA Chairs to respond to the Brigade Managers pay claim consultation.

Clair highlighted the Government’s consultation on its age discrimination remedy proposals which is due to close on 11 October. This will represent a huge challenge for FRAs and Clair said that it is important for members to be properly briefed by their officers on the implications.

Clair then updated members on the Home Office Immediate Detriment Guidance in the McCloud/Sargeant case and said that the LGA had asked for further clarification about a number of technical areas on the application of the guidance.

Cllr Roger Phillips (Member of the Fire Scheme Advisory Board and Chair of LGPS Scheme Advisory Board) said that in his view the informal guidance was not strong enough and was likely to be challenged by the employee side. He advised members to ensure that administration of the scheme is on their authority’s risk register as several administrators were considering pulling out. He added that extra employers’ contributions had so far been met by the Government and that it was important for this to continue going forward.

Decision

Members of the Fire Commission noted the workforce update.

The Chair invited Charles Loft to introduce the update.

Charles reported that the pace of remediation of buildings with dangerous cladding remained slow and had not been helped by the Covid situation. The Minister had set a new target to get work started on all buildings with ACM cladding by Christmas. However, data collection on buildings with dangerous non-ACM cladding had stalled.

Charles highlighted other issues of concern including problems with the External Wall Fire Review (EWS1) process preventing people obtaining mortgages, and fire risk assessors being unable to get insurance to carry out assessment of external cladding systems. The latter was contributing to a significant lack of skilled people to carry out this vital work.

Charles said that Lord Porter had given evidence to the HCLG Select Committee which was carrying out pre-legislative scrutiny of the Building Safety Bill. In its present form, the Bill doesn’t deal with the issue of costs of work and who should ultimately pay.

Following Charles’ introduction, members raised the following points:

·       Extension of permitted development rights, particularly the conversion of offices to flats was a real concern in terms of fire safety. Charles highlighted the letter at Appendix A to the Minister raising this issue and the earlier item when members expressed their concerns to Jonny Bugg. No response had yet been received to the letter and Charles promised to chase it.

·       Members agreed that the ‘locked in equity’ issue where residents were effectively trapped in flats that were unsaleable, was the key issue that needed to be addressed. It was considered that deregulation of the building safety sector was to blame for a lot of the current problems and there was a lack of professional expertise currently available to address them. Charles said that the Building Safety Bill contained a mechanism that should prevent further tragedies in new build blocks but it didn’t address what to do with the existing stock.

·       HMOs in student areas were considered to be a real risk for fire services.

·       It was suggested that local authorities should be working more closely with fire services and authorities to achieve more effective fire safety in the planning system as it was in everybody’s best interests. Charles said that the LGA was responding to the Government’s planning reform consultations, including outlining the concerns over fire safety. He encouraged individual local authorities to do the same. He said that something would have to give, as the Building Safety Bill and the Planning White Paper were currently incompatible.

Decision

Members of the Fire Commission noted the LGA’s building safety work.

The Chair invited Nick Collins to introduce the update.

Nick said that the paper summarised the huge amount of work going on in FRS’s, coordinated nationally by the NFCC. The approach of the NFCC was to try and solve problems nationally rather than have each individual service coming up with their own solution piecemeal and he requested members’ support in this. He reported that the NFCC had received uplift funding from the Home Office this year for the first time and was keen to see this continue. Finally, Nick highlighted the Fit for the Future programme which was about to go out for wide consultation.

The Chair thanked Nick and the NFCC for their work and all Central Programme Office colleagues who had contributed.

Decision

Members of the Fire Commission noted the NFCC update.

The Chair invited Nick Collins and Cllr Nick Chard to introduce the update.

Nick Chard said that the Board had got off to a relatively slow start but was now starting to make progress. The extra resources that the Home Office had put into the Board was helping in that regard. Nick highlighted the draft Code of Ethics Standard which was shortly going out to consultation as an example of the Board’s recent work and he urged members to look at all the detail in the report.

Decision

Members of the Fire Commission noted the Fire Standards Board update.

Decision

Members of the Fire Commission noted the update.

There was no further business.