Minutes:
The Chair introduced Sarah Benioff, Director for Integration and Community Rights and Fire, Resilience and Emergencies at DCLG, and her colleague Brian Nash from the National Fire Policy Division at DCLG.
The Director thanked members for welcoming her to the Fire Commission and for the warm welcome she has received since her appointment. The Director commented that since taking up her post she has been impressed by the commitment of the fire family to the service and also the outcomes the fire service has produced over many years. She explained that her role encompasses integration and community rights as well as the work on fire, resilience and emergencies that was previously carried out by Neil O’Connor.
The Director encouraged members to respond to the current consultation on Enabling closer working between the Emergency Services. She commented that a number of members of the Commission had attended an engagement event on this topic held by DCLG.
The government has put £70 million into blue light collaboration. Elected Police and Crime Commissioners (PCCs) have shown the benefit of bringing some services together and making savings through use of shared buildings and back office functions. Post-election Home Office, Department of Health and DCLG are working to bring together more of the emergency services. The Knight Review found that collaboration is happening but it is patchy.
The powers proposed are not intended to be mandatory but meant to be enabling and that is the emphasis of the consultation. Ministers are clear that the emergency services should be accountable to local communities with local people having a say over how the services are run. PCCs have clear local accountability and a strong incentive to pursue ambitious reform to improve local services and deliver value for money in the interests of local people
The consultation aims to find what is happening across the country. It is meant to be enabling and about removing barriers which are preventing collaboration. The government is not mandating the transfer of services to PCCs except where local people want it and there is a local case based on strong local economies, efficiency and public safety. The Director reassured the Commission that the powers of police and firefighters will not be mixed and firefighters will not be expected to act as police or be given police powers.
The Spending Review and its launch document stress growth and productivity, particularly local growth, radical devolution and the integration of public services. As in 2010, as directed by the Treasury and along with other government departments, the DCLG submission set out modelling based on 20% reductions and 40% reductions by 2019/20. The Treasury and Ministers are discussing the submissions along with those from other individual organisations. The LGA submission is being considered.
The Director welcomed the LGA and CFOA strategic connections with health as important sustainable partners.
In the discussion which followed the Director’s talk the following topics were raised:
· The Adrian Thomas review was still yet to be published. Members asked when the review would be published. The Minister told the DCLG Select Committee on 15th September 2015 that it would be published in the next few months.
· The consultation appears more focused on collaboration with police services, whereas the FRS can make a bigger contribution through collaborating with the ambulance and the wider health service. The Director agreed effective collaboration between fire and health services was already taking place and encouraged members to include this in their consultation responses.
· Members were clear that FRAs are already finding ways to collaborate with other services.
· Some members felt the removal of national agreements on terms and conditions for fire fighters would help to drive further collaboration.
· The democratic accountability of FRAs was considered better than that of PCCs. Members felt authorities were working well with PCCs anyway and did not want to lose local democratic accountability of members representing their community.
· There were strong concerns about FRAs being taken over by PCCs. The Director and Mr Nash stressed they did not see the consultation as enabling hostile takeovers. PCCs would only assume responsibility for fire where there is a local case and local people want it. The merging of services should be based on efficiency, effectiveness, public safety and local support.
· One authority reported that it has already invited the PCC to be a member of the fire authority and written to DCLG to increase the membership to account for this.
· Members wanted clarity about how the proposal; to allow councils to retain 100 per cent of business rates will work, with members concerned it will have a disproportionate impact on northern FRAs. The Director agreed to provide more information for members on this point.
· Members expressed particular concern over the paragraph that enabled the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for DCLG top overrule local wishes and reach a view over whether a governance change should take place.
· Members felt that unless all parties involved supported the PCC taking over responsibility for fire the proposal should be dropped.
· It was also suggested that there should be a referendum locally on proposals for PCC to take over fire.
The Chair thanked the Director and Mr Nash for attending the meeting, and looked forward to the Minister for Communities and Resilience attending a future meeting of the Fire Commission.
Decision
· Members noted the comments of the Director for Integration and Community Rights and Fire, Resilience and Emergencies.