Agenda and minutes

The Chair welcomed members to the final meeting of the LGA calendar year and paid tribute to those who were standing down, in particular former Lead Member - Fiona Twycross - and former Chair - Cllr Jeremy Hilton.

There were no apologies.

Cllr Brackenridge declared a non-pecuniary interest in item 8 – Pensions Update – as a member of the Firefighters’ Pension Scheme.

The minutes of the previous meeting held on 19 May 2023 were agreed as an accurate record.

The Chair invited Lucy Ellender (LE), Senior Adviser, to introduce the update.

LE provided members with an update on progress against agreed actions and gave feedback on the recent Culture in the Fire & Rescue Service conference held at 18 Smith Square on 27 June. Feedback from the conference had been positive with a range of suggestions for future events and training. Materials from the conference would be made available on the LGA website in due course. A further update on progress against actions would be brought to the FSMC meeting in October.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       Whilst members welcomed the conference and thanked all the excellent contributors, it was noted with regret that only approximately one third of FRAs were represented. Potential ways of reaching out to those FRAs that were less willing to engage were discussed, including greater use of online interaction, peer challenge and taking LGA support directly to FRAs. The FSMC Equalities Advocate, Cllr Hugo, proposed meeting with LGA officers to agree a way forward on further engagement and LE emphasised that the conference was envisaged as being the first in a series of events and training sessions that the LGA would be putting on for FRAs. The Chair added that the LGA’s EDI Champions’ Network met throughout the year and had been doing so for several years – this would continue.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee noted progress on agreed actions.

CFO Ben Ansell and Mark Hemming (NFCC) and Emma Lawrence (Home Office) to attend

The Chair invited CFO Ben Ansell (BA) and Mark Hemming (MH) – NFCC; and Emma Lawrence (EL) - Home Office to introduce the update.

Following the success of the previous year’s consistent and evidence-based process for input into the local government finance settlement, BA asked members if they were happy to endorse a similar approach for the upcoming 2024/25 settlement. The proposed ask was for government grant increases in line with CPI inflation (as at September 2023) and band D precept flexibility of £5 or 3%. The evidence base was currently being strengthened by a survey of CFOs on non-pay inflationary pressures. A consistent position across all authority types would be sought and FSMC members would be asked to write to key ministers and other MPs in due course.

EL emphasised the importance of (i) the evidence from the inflation survey, particularly non-pay inflation over which FRAs have no control; and (ii) the consistency of the ask across authorities, in influencing HM Treasury.

MH provided more detail on the progress of the inflation survey. Once analysis of the results was complete, it would be shared with FSMC.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       Members strongly supported the proposed approach and offered their assistance in seeking a 100% response rate to the inflation survey.

·       Members asked whether there was any prospect of the Government introducing a 2 or 3 year settlement in order to provide FRAs with more certainty. EL said that the expectation within the Home Office was that there would be a multi-year settlement following the next Spending Review.

·       Concerns were expressed about future capital and non-consolidated grants and whether these would be continuing. EL said that negotiations were currently taking place with DLUHC about the pensions and protection grants in terms of potentially rolling them into the main grant. There was unlikely to be a separate capital grant moving forward but it was important for FRAs to quantify their capital requirements to feed into the submission to HM Treasury.

In conclusion, BA thanked members for their support and offered to provide a further update at the FSMC meeting on 6 October.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee noted the update and endorsed the proposed approach to the upcoming local government finance settlement.

CFO Phil Shillito, Humberside FRS and Emma Lawrence, Home Office to attend

The Chair invited CFO Phil Shillito (PS) – NFCC - and Emma Lawrence (EL) and Jack Pickering (JP) - Home Office - to introduce the report.

PS provided members with some background to the Fire Productivity and Efficiency Forum, which was formed in January 2022 in response to commitments by the NFCC and Home Office to increase both productivity and efficiency in the fire and rescue service over the course of the current Spending Review period (2022/23-2024/25).

To address gaps in the evidence base around productivity, academics at Cambridge Econometrics had been commissioned to devise a fire productivity metric. This was presented to the Forum in 2022 and was now being further refined and developed.

EL updated members on the results of the Fire Productivity and Efficiency Plans. Headline findings showed that between 2022/23-2024/25, at national level, FRAs are forecast to make average savings of 5.6 per cent per annum (£97m) against non-payroll budgets of £1.7bn, against a target of 6%. Outliers from the survey were currently being engaged with to get further detail, and examples of good practice were being collated.

JP informed members about the Firefighter Utilisation Survey which would be running through 2023/24, with quarterly snapshots planned for its duration. The survey would help to provide a baseline level of data which could then feed into the productivity metric and would be used by HMICFRS to inform inspections. Further work on measuring the quality of outcomes would be undertaken.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       It was suggested that the productivity and efficiency agenda had largely been overtaken by the pressing need to address problems with culture and inclusion in fire services. PS said that both agendas were very important and were strongly linked, particularly in terms of public trust in the service. The Chair endorsed this view and stated that culture remained a key priority for all services.

·       Reassurance was sought over the consistency of measurement of activity between services. JP said that data consistency was still being worked on but it was moving in the right direction.

·       Roger Hirst asked if it would be possible to have access to the model behind the productivity metric. JP agreed to contact Roger directly.

·       Cllr Brackenridge, Chair West Midlands FRA, asked how his service’s West Midlands ‘risk-based crewing’ model would be reflected in the productivity metric. PS confirmed that this would be recorded as an efficiency for that service but emphasised that decisions of this sort were operational ones for services to make. Use of technology also needed to be carefully considered in relation to efficiency and productivity.

·       It was considered important to be able to demonstrate the benefits that firefighters bring to their communities during the 90+% of their working time when they are not attending an operational incident. PS agreed but added that this figure was a lot lower for services who operated predominantly on-call duty systems. Policy decisions such as not attending ‘unwanted’ fire signals also had implications for efficiency and productivity and this needed to be  ...  view the full minutes text for item 5.

The Chair invited Lucy Ellender, Senior Adviser, to introduce the report.

LE briefly outlined progress against the current year’s priorities and noted that the flexibility built into the work programme which members had asked for, had enabled a strong focus on culture to be implemented in early 2023 in response to events in the sector. Feedback was invited from members on possible priority areas of work for 2023/24.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       Members supported continuation of the current priorities with the proviso that the focus on culture within the people priority, and the need to increase productivity within the Sector Led Improvement priority, be made more explicit to reflect ongoing developments in this area.

·       The success of the NJC in securing a pay settlement without strike action taking place, when compared to other sectors, was noted.

·       The potential impact on FSMC priorities of the upcoming general election and the need for the LGA to influence party manifestos was raised.

LE thanked members for their input and said that the priorities would be amended in the light of the comments made, and presented to the Fire Commission on 22 September and FSMC on 6 October for final agreement.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee noted the work of the FSMC over the last year and agreed initial proposals for 2023/24 priorities, subject to final agreement at the FSMC meeting on 6 October.

The Chair invited Gill Gittins (GG), Senior Adviser (Workforce & Negotiations) to introduce the update.

GG indicated that she was happy for the report to be taken as read and to answer any questions as required.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee noted the update.

The Chair invited Elena Johnson (EJ), Acting Senior Pensions Adviser, to introduce the update.

EJ indicated that she was happy for the report to be taken as read and to answer any questions as required.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       Cllr Byrom said that he had recently joined the Scheme Advisory Board and found the level of detail and complexity in the reports too great for what should be a broad member oversight role. EJ thanked Cllr Byrom for the feedback and agreed to look into the report structure and content.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee noted the update.

The Chair invited Mark Norris (MN), Principal Policy Adviser, to introduce the update.

MN indicated that he was happy for the report to be taken as read and to answer any questions as required.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       The issue of recruiting and retaining building safety inspectors to support the new building safety regime was raised. MN reassured members that this was very much on the LGA’s and NFCC’s radar, particularly around the sustainability of funding for the work once initial Government seedcorn funding expired. Mark Hardingham, NFCC, endorsed these comments and said that retention of highly qualified staff, in particular, was becoming a really significant issue, especially in London. Engagement with universities over provision of fire engineering degrees was also being discussed to try and increase the number of newly qualified recruits to the profession.

·       An update on Personal Emergency Evacuation Plans was requested. MN said that Home Office proposals around this were expected before the summer Parliamentary recess. Jonny Bugg, Home Office, confirmed that the PEEPs proposals, and the Fire Reform White Paper response, were both currently in the advanced stages of cross-Government clearance with a view to release either before, or shortly after recess.

·       The information on Reinforced Autoclaved Aerated Concrete was welcomed but members asked if there were any other similar building safety issues that the LGA was currently concerned about. MN urged FRAs, not only to be aware of any schools in their area that contained RAAC, but also to look at their own estates, as this material was used quite widely in the 1950s, 60s and 70s in municipal buildings. In terms of further building safety and construction issues, MN said that Large Panel System buildings remained a cause for concern and more work needed to be done to both identify and remediate them.

·       The Chair highlighted the work of the LGA’s Joint Inspection Team and encouraged members to consider whether any buildings in their areas would benefit from a JIT inspection, and to contact brian.castle@local.gov.ukin the first instance.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee noted the update.

The Chair invited Mark Hardingham (MH), NFCC Chair, to introduce the update.

MH indicated that he was happy for the report to be taken as read and to answer any questions as required.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       Members requested an opportunity to scrutinise the review of the recent 999 outage. MH said that he would be happy to bring an update to the FSMC meeting following the completion of the review and suggested that a BT representative might also be happy to join that call.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee noted the update.

Action:

Schedule 999 outage item for future FSMC meeting

The Chair invited Cllr Nick Chard, LGA rep on the FSB, to introduce the update.

Cllr Chard indicated that he was happy for the report to be taken as read and to answer any questions as required. He added that he very much hoped that in the Government’s forthcoming White Paper consultation response, the FSB would not be subsumed into a police college or similar, as it had been doing excellent work. The Chair endorsed this view.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee:

·       noted the contents of this report for information;

·       agreed to provide ongoing support to officers in enabling and empowering them to engage in the development and implementation of the Fire Standards both in production and when published; and

·       agreed to encourage the monitoring of the benefits of the Fire Standards in their services.

The Chair invited Mark Norris (MN), Principal Policy Adviser, to introduce the update.

MN reported that a letter from the Minister on the changes to the DBS regulations had been received on 6 July and were therefore now in force.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       Cllr Healey reported that he had attended the recent NFCC conference on on-call duty systems and felt that it was important for the LGA to be represented on the NFCC’s Committee on this moving forward. MH agreed that it was important for FRAs to be represented as this was a strategic as well as operational issue for services.

Decision:

Fire Services Management Committee noted the update.

Action:

Officers to add NFCC on-call Committee to list of outside body appointments.

The Chair invited Mark Norris (MN), Principal Policy Adviser, to introduce the item.

MN reported that the Government response to the White Paper consultation was likely to be published before the summer Parliamentary recess (20 July). As FSMC was not due to meet again until 6 October, members views were sought on some proposed broad principles (set out in paragraph 18 of the report) to enable the LGA to respond, in consultation with the Lead Members, once the Government document is published. MN said that the Home Office were keen to talk to FSMC about possible ways of improving accountability and transparency in FRAs without mandatory governance changes, but wanted to wait until the Government White Paper response had been signed off by ministers. It was hoped that either the Minister, and/or officials, would be able to attend the Fire Commission meeting on 22 September to discuss the way forward.

Members’ comments and questions:

·       In response to a query from the Chair, MN clarified that the LGA would be looking to put out a press release, straight after publication of the Government response. For speed and expediency, this would need to be signed off by Lead Members. A more detailed response to the proposals could then be drawn up through consultation with members at both the scheduled Fire Commission and FSMC meetings.

·       Some members considered that the three principles outlined in paragraph 18 needed to be more positive, recognising the need for, and welcoming some reform in the sector. For example, it was stated that both operational independence and qualifications for CFOs would be positive and welcome reforms to the sector.

·       Members agreed that changes to governance could be beneficial but needed to be evidence-based and supported locally, not imposed on FRAs by Government. This had always been the LGA position and should remain so.

·       It was suggested that consideration be given to whether there is a need for the LGAs response and discussions with the Home Office to indicate legislative changes to enable FRAs to address issues with culture in services, particularly on employment law and disciplinary procedures.

·       It was considered important that the fire service retained its own identity and did not get subsumed within a Police College.

·       It was suggested that the LGA response should include recognition of the efficiency and effectiveness of the NJC in industrial relations matters, but recognising consideration it could be given to improvement, by the UK-wide partners themselves and not by a Home Office top-down approach.

·       It was considered that operational independence was not an issue for county brigades as councils already had clear demarcation between strategic and operational matters through clear schemes of delegation.

·       In relation to the West Midlands Combined Mayoral Authority, Cllr Brackenridge stated that transfer of governance from the existing FRA to a Mayor would not be supported by the constituent authorities, nor would any proposed executive arrangements reporting in to the Mayor. He added that the proposal for a Mayoral arrangement was rejected unanimously by the West  ...  view the full minutes text for item 13.